During his travels, Bryan sat down one afternoon with seven major players on the German metal scene to discuss how and why the music has maintained such health in Europe, and what significance this might have for America. The participants in this roundtable, which took place on Wednesday, April 19, at the offices of Rock Hard magazine near Dortmund, are:
FRANK BANX and BERND AUFERMANN, bassist and guitarist for Angel Dust
DORO PESCH, singer and solo artist
GOETZ KUEHNEMUND, Scribe-in-Chief at Rock Hard magazine
HANSI KURSCH, vocalist/ lyricist for Blind Guardian and Demons & Wizards
AXEL RUDI PELL, guitarist and solo artist
MILLE PETROZZA, vocalist/ guitarist for Kreator
Angel Dust |
LAUNCH:
In America, we hear a lot about Germany being this holy land for heavy metal. Many metal artists sell better here than in America. Is there a metal community here?
DORO:
There definitely is.
GOETZ:
In Germany, we have a big infrastructure--we've got 10 magazines all dealing with metal, far too many bands to count, Internet magazines...
DORO:
[Laughs]
No radio or TV.
 |
| Blind Guardian |
GOETZ:
Only local radio and local TV. There is national radio, but it's not really metal-oriented. You can hear Rammstein or the Scorpions on radio, but we're not talking metal, then.
AXEL:
Only the ballads of the Scorpions.
LAUNCH:
Are the Scorpions even popular here anymore?
GOETZ:
Not anymore. They shipped 150,000 albums in Germany on the last one, [but] they sold 28,000.
Hansi Kursch |
LAUNCH:
You have a third of the size [population] of the U.S., but you probably have a bigger market than we do. We only have two major metal magazines.
GOETZ:
We have big outdoor festivals in the summer, everything from 10,000 [people] for the small ones to 100,000 for the big festivals. [Of] the strictly metal-oriented ones, you might have heard of Wacken [Open Air]--there's only traditional metal playing there. They expect 35,000 this year.
LAUNCH:
So Rock Hard is the main magazine in Germany?
GOETZ:
Yes. Metal Hammer is the second biggest in Germany. Heavy, Oder Was!? [Heavy Or What!?] is popular in the bigger underground. Then there's Break Out, which is commercial rock and hard rock, and Visions, which is alternative and hard rock.
LAUNCH:
What are the circulations like?
 |
| Kreator |
GOETZ:
Our printed circulation is 100,000 [monthly] and we sell around 65,000 to 70,000, depending [upon] if we include a CD or not. Metal Hammer sells about 55,000, and Visions sells about 40,000 to 45,000. Heavy, Oder Was!? is the fourth biggest in Germany, and Break Out is the fifth. Then we have a lot of fanzines.
LAUNCH:
What's the concert scene like here? What kind of venues do your bands play in?
HANSI:
Obviously, it depends on the band. Let's say you're at a medium [level], you can draw 500 to 700 people each night, and if you're a little more successful, it goes up to 2,000, but over that, it's pretty tough.
GOETZ:
There are only 10 bands at the most that can fill the biggest arenas--going from 5,000- to 20,000-seaters--which are AC/DC, Metallica, Maiden now after the reunion, Die Toten Hosen, Rammstein...It's none of the new American platinum stars, so there's no Marilyn Manson or Korn playing these places.
LAUNCH:
How is the new school of metal being received here? Are people here into it as much as the classic stuff?
GOETZ:
Not really.
HANSI:
They're trying to push it, but it's not working that well. Marilyn Manson can have a decent success.
Axel Rudi Pell |
GOETZ:
2,000 [people] a night.
LAUNCH:
So stuff like Limp Bizkit and Korn and Deftones is...
GOETZ:
...fairly popular but not big.
LAUNCH:
Is it common for old-school metal albums to hit the charts here?
DORO:
AC/DC just hit No. 1 on the German charts.
GOETZ:
Almost everybody that's around this table has been on the German charts. I think every metal band selling from 10,000 albums on up hits the German charts, which means the top 100.
AXEL:
My new album [The Masquerade Ball], which was released last Monday, will be No. 37 next week. [Applause] Thank you! [Laughter]
GOETZ:
[The last] Blind Guardian [album] entered at No. 11, right?
HANSI:
No. 7.
LAUNCH:
I heard Manowar is huge over here. Is it really true?
HANSI:
They were big with Kings Of Metal [in 1988], and the album afterwards [in 1992] did well. They have a diehard fanship, that's for sure, but it's definitely decreasing. If they do an album now, they'll hit the top 20 for sure, but top 10 is the question.
GOETZ:
They still sell something between 70,000 and 100,000 albums in Germany. In their heyday, they made gold, which was 250,000. Now [gold certification] is 150,000 in Germany, because the sales are going down for everybody.
LAUNCH:
What's platinum?
GOETZ:
300,000.
LAUNCH:
Why are sales going down?
GOETZ:
Because of the economy. Folks don't have that much money anymore. You have to pay 35 DM for a CD right now [about $17]. The economy went down the last 10 years with the latest government. If you take the whole of the sales, it's probably not dropping, it's maybe even going up, but there are so many more bands that per band it [probably] goes down.
HANSI:
It's not because there are less listeners but because they have a bigger variety to choose from.
AXEL:
[Another] problem is that everybody can make CDs with their CD writer.
GOETZ:
People are bootlegging stuff all the time, so that's hurting the record business.
HANSI:
It's more of a problem for mainstream pop music in general than it is for hard 'n' heavy music. We're still achieving the same sales. There is a limit. I would say if you achieve 150,000 you can't get further, that is for sure.
LAUNCH:
That's still not bad, though. In America, the major labels expect you to do a million. Is it better for metal bands to be on indies over here?
GOETZ:
For most bands it is. The only band on a major label [at this table] is Blind Guardian. [Ed. note: They are signed to Virgin in Germany and to indie Century Media in the States.]
DORO:
I spent my whole career on major labels--PolyGram [worldwide], then Warner Bros. over here. Now I'm on SPV, which is a big independent label, and I am much happier. They are much more into it, and they concentrate much more on [my music]. When you're on a major label, you have to compete with Phil Collins and Cher. When my last record came out...
LAUNCH:
...it got lost.
DORO:
Totally, totally.
LAUNCH:
I love when American labels try to promote European bands: "They went gold in Finland!" Well, what's gold in Finland?
HANSI:
In most European countries, gold is about 20,000, like Austria, Switzerland, Finland, and Norway. Denmark and Sweden are actually higher, about 50 or 100,000, because [more] people are into music. But if you want to get into the north [of Europe], you can't achieve any sales--20,000 is a lot there. If you do 3,000 in Finland, that's fine.
LAUNCH:
When did the festivals start happening in Germany?
GOETZ:
The first big metal festival we had was Monsters Of Rock in '83. That's when it all started. We had big outdoor festivals during the '80s, but they were pretty badly organized. During the late '80s, fans themselves started to build up and promote the festivals, which are now the main events almost 10 years later. But of course they were even worse [in terms of] organization in the beginning. Now things are starting to catch up. Events like Wacken have started to be halfway decent. It's nowhere near perfect.
LAUNCH:
It's far better than what we have in America!
GOETZ:
If you compare ours to events like Milwaukee [Metalfest], it's paradise. The worst festival in Europe is at least three times as good as the best in America, honestly. But if you compare the events within Europe, then we're not really well organized. The best ones are musically mixed, like With Full Force, which is taking place in the former East Germany. Iron Maiden will headline this year and they expect 40,000. Heavy, Oder Was!? has the Bang Your Head Festival in the southern part of Germany, and they're attracting 10,000 to 20,000 people this year. They're all growing. The other events promoted by the big promoters--people that rip people off--are definitely decreasing. Like all the "Monsters Of Rock" [events] are called "Super Rock" or "Metal 2000." They're not drawing the same anymore because people know they're not getting something for their money. But still they attract between 30,000 and 50,000.
LAUNCH:
Are the festival rosters strict?
MILLE:
It depends. At Dynamo [in Holland], they have a large variety of bands, anything from the Korn-ish bands to the most traditional bands. None of the bands have a problem playing with each other.
GOETZ:
Here everybody can play the same stage, because here everybody is playing metal. Even the most traditional event would have all of these bands on the same bill.
AXEL:
This year at With Full Force, Iron Maiden will headline the first day, then we'll share the same stage on Sunday with Slayer.
LAUNCH:
It seems like sales expectations are healthier over here. Americans have this arrogant attitude that if [a certain style of] music isn't big there, then it isn't good. By that logic, Celine Dion, Hootie & the Blowfish, and Alanis Morissette are geniuses, which is completely false. I think that's part of the reason why metal has such a problem now in the States.
MILLE:
It's not originally from the States, though.
GOETZ:
I think Mille's right, that is the problem--metal is from Europe. When it came to the States, it hit the big time for a couple of years, but then it went out again because it's not rooted in American tradition.
LAUNCH:
I've noticed that the European bands have more of a fantasy element in their lyrics. Also, history and theology are more important, while many American bands are just into sex, drugs, and partying.
GOETZ:
Over here, it's definitely more serious, which you can take in a good and a bad way. It doesn't say anything about the quality of the music, but it's more serious over here.
LAUNCH:
I would think that the Dio approach to metal would be more popular in Europe. To Americans, [medieval] bands like Manowar are seen as goofy. Even with a band as sophisticated as Blind Guardian, the average American pop fan wouldn't know what to think about your Renaissance or classical elements.
GOETZ:
That's what I meant about it not being rooted in American tradition. Those roots go everywhere in Europe. I think that's why it will never go away. In the States, it's a trend like everything else, but of course it's coming back all the time and it will come back 10 more times.
LAUNCH:
But in different forms. Are you aware of trends over here? Do you feel like you have to write hit singles?
MILLE:
There are certain record labels that want you to do hit singles, and it never works, especially with bands that have a history. There are certain new bands that come out with a hit single, and they are very big for a while. I would consider those bands trendy, because two years from the point in time where they were big, nobody will care about them anymore.
HANSI:
What is interesting regarding Maiden in the States is to see how big the underground is, because they will catch the album. Then you can see if 100,000 people or even more are following that kind of music. And hopefully that gives a little support to the other bands.
[Goetz briefly leaves the conference room to get more drinks for everyone.]
LAUNCH:
Now that Goetz isn't here... [Laughter] Do you find that there's actually criticism [in metal magazines] here, or is most stuff approved of?
DORO:
I think that they're much more critical here.
HANSI:
Not only in Rock Hard, but all the others as well. If they're loyal, you can release bullsh-t and they will [support] you for a while. But once they're aware that the kids don't like it, you'll have a hard time next time, even if you come up with a good album. Because then they think, "Now I have to be a little more critical." And they will be.
AXEL:
What happened to me, for example, is when I put out my first Ballads record seven years ago, it was "Arsch Bombe Of The Month" in this magazine [Rock Hard]. [Laughter] But it was my best-selling release until two years ago.
LAUNCH:
When you did the second Ballads album. [Laughter; Goetz comes back in with drinks.] Goetz, do you give bands a hard time?
GOETZ:
Sometimes, if they deserve it.
LAUNCH:
What lyrical topics specifically interest European bands most?
HANSI:
We're on the entertaining side, so we're pretty much into mythology. Of course, Tolkien, but other things as well. Sometimes we have political aspects in the lyrics but people aren't aware because it's hidden. I don't like to make things obvious, so it's more of the fantasy thing. People deal with that and they appreciate it.
BERND:
On our new album [Angel Dust's Enlighten The Darkness], we deal with very strong political activities [happening] right now.
BANX:
It's about things that happened in the Third Reich, but mainly it describes situations which are still happening now in Europe. Being German, we can't say, "Mr. Milosevic, you are a very evil person." So we say, "Mr. Adolf Hitler, you are an evil person," but if you read the lyrics, you can take them directly into the present. It's a bit difficult to explain in a few words. It's our first time being strictly political. And probably our last time. [Laughter]
LAUNCH:
Do fans like or dislike that?
BERND:
We had to hide the lyrics a little, like Hansi said, so each song is a short story to a complete story. You can listen to each song and have a story--maybe a love story, maybe a social criticism story. But it all fits. We don't like [to preach].
BANX:
We can't point our finger at anybody else, but we can say, "Look what happened here, beware [that it doesn't happen again]." In Austria right now, there's a very strict right-wing party in the government, and I was shocked when I read this. I said, "It can't be true." Once again with the same stupid idea behind it.
LAUNCH:
I think the reason metal was only big for a short while in America is because it was only dangerous for a short while. Around 1982, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Black Sabbath were the scary bands, and then they were co-opted by all the pretty-boy bands who turned it into goofy music. Then thrash and death-metal became the dangerous stuff.
GOETZ:
But people over here never got [into] that stuff just for provocation. They were into the music first, and that's why it has lasted.
LAUNCH:
Was metal ever considered dangerous or controversial over here?
GOETZ:
Sure it was, by people [on the] outside. But people within the scene don't really care. They don't take it as a dangerous thing, they don't take it as controversial, it's just music.
MILLE:
That's the reason why Marilyn Manson could never be as big here as he is in the States. For European people, he's not that dangerous or controversial.
LAUNCH:
He's a businessman.
MILLE:
Exactly. And that doesn't matter for the kids that buy metal records in Europe. I personally don't think that his image is dangerous at all, but then again in the States it seems to work.
HANSI:
You shouldn't forget that most people here don't understand the lyrics anyway. That's another point: Even with the rap bands, they don't have a clue what they're singing about.
LAUNCH:
So rap isn't that big here, then?
HANSI:
It is, it is. Kids like it but they don't know what they're talking about. It's hard to understand anyway, but they don't care. As they don't care so much with heavy metal.
DORO:
I think people can feel what you're singing about. When it's emotional, then you kind of get it. Usually before I could understand [the words to some songs], the fascination was much bigger [for me]. And then when I understood what people were writing about, I was so disappointed because it wasn't as huge as I expected it to be. It was all pretty average sh-t.
LAUNCH:
Metal was big in England in the early '80s and now it's big here. Why are kids getting into it here?
GOETZ:
They always have. When Iron Maiden started in 1979, I think it took [only] one year before it went over to the other European countries. I think Iron Maiden were the band who changed the old face of hard rock into the new face of heavy metal more or less alone. When they put out Killers, everybody was affected. You had the New Wave Of British Heavy Metal [come to] Germany--of course, you had Judas Priest and the other bands, too. Then it was big and just never went away.
HANSI:
After Germany, Spain is the second biggest market for heavy metal.
LAUNCH:
Why is German power-metal so popular?
HANSI:
I guess the most important point is melody. People are more focused on melodies than on anything else.
LAUNCH:
That's why I don't get the new American stuff. There aren't any melodies. Somebody told me he thought the guitarists in Limp Bizkit are so good they don't need to solo. I say they don't solo because they can't. [Laughter] You're hearing riffs but they don't change. It's just groove-oriented.
GOETZ:
More rhythm-oriented [bands] don't make it here in Europe. If you're only rhythm-oriented...
AXEL:
What do you think about Rammstein? It's the same style, just riffing all the time.
HANSI:
There are some melodies.
GOETZ:
Maybe that's an exception, but even Slayer have had good melodies. Early Metallica was very rhythm-oriented, but it was still melodic.
LAUNCH:
So what's the deal with Russia? [Former Accept singer] Udo Dirkschneider told me that Russia is becoming a big live market.
MILLE:
Kreator just played there a month ago. They really take care of you, but everything around it is very strange. You're not allowed to take girls to your hotel room, but you are allowed to take the girls that are working at the hotel. [Laughter] That's one strange thing. But the audiences were very good, and that's what we were there for.
LAUNCH:
How big were they?
MILLE:
Around 2,000. Then again, Russia is a huge market, but you will never, ever get any money off of the records that you sell over there.
GOETZ:
The same goes for Poland and Hungary. You'll never get anything out of there.
BANX:
They do tape trading. They have little shops, like a candy shop, and you can just buy cassette tapes there. Usually people buy on the street in very small shops. [Vendors] buy one CD, then they make a hundred copies of it. That's the way it works.
MILLE:
It's like that with anything in Russia, even with DVDs.
LAUNCH:
To wrap up, I was going to ask how long you all think the metal boom is going to last in Germany, but it seems that it'll be going for a long time.
DORO:
From my experience, our fanbase in America pretty much died down [after the '80s boom] and we couldn't get a gig in front of 200 people. But here we were always touring, whether the record company was pushing it or not.
GOETZ:
I think the main thing over here is the new Iron Maiden album. If it sells big-time in Europe, which I think it will, then the so-called boom of traditional metal will last longer. But if it doesn't [do well], then it still won't die out, it will just stay the same.
LAUNCH:
Could it get bigger?
GOETZ:
It could get bigger, yeah...
LINKS:
Rock Hard: www.rockhard.de
Angel Dust: www.angel-dust.de
Blind Guardian: www.blind-guardian.com
Demons & Wizards: www.icedearth.com/dw
Doro Pesch: www.doro.de/
Kreator (fan pages): members.tripod.com/kreator1/
Axel Rudi Pell: www.axel-rudi-pell.de/
